I think if I were going to design a church, I think I would make all the ministries volunteer jobs. Everybody just work for a living, and there would be more than one elder with no top dog, none, zip.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
I think in my church, even if we were on the front-line of every great thing God was doing, we wouldn't talk about it. We would just go about our business day by day. Eventually, a few of us would write books about the significance of our deeds, promote the books and...
I'm getting ahead of myself--sorry.
--Son of Gods Team 6
I'm getting ahead of myself--sorry.
--Son of Gods Team 6
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
changedagain Wrote:
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>
> I'm not sure if I can care about someone who
> doesn't have a ministry title. That's a radical
> concept, lily rose.
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You sound like somebody's Daddy. ha! "Service Coach(es)." Who doesn't care about coaches?
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>
> I'm not sure if I can care about someone who
> doesn't have a ministry title. That's a radical
> concept, lily rose.
_____________________________________________________________
You sound like somebody's Daddy. ha! "Service Coach(es)." Who doesn't care about coaches?
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
I've been reading these posts for a couple of years and thought I would weigh in now. I came into the Walk as an impressionable young teenager in the late 60s. My parents actually came to a service and then told me I couldn't go any more. I was told by the church pastor and elders that I should lie to my parents so I could continue attending services, which I did. The regret I feel many years later is still with me, especially since the Walk also required that I break my bonds with my parents and family. I will always wonder what my relationship with my parents would have been like had I listened to them. Christmas was now "Saturnalia" and I hurt my parents over and over again by being absent from their home on December 25. I spent many years immersed in the Walk, attending services several nights per week, giving "until it hurts," waiting on the Lord, spending money I didn't have on my Living Word tape subscription, School of Prophets books, etc. Now all these years later I'm divorced, even though JRS checked out my marriage and declared "It's a marriage made in heaven." I regret the years wasted when I could have been completing college and establishing a career instead of screaming "death to the channel" in the LA churches. When I left the Walk soon after JRS died, it was as though I'd fallen into a black hole as I waited for judgment to fall on my head. I was, after all, no longer under the covering of the Walk and had disobeyed JRS and God. My brother is still in the Walk, obeying every command from Gary and Marilyn and the "authorities" at his church.
Moving on, I knew David Cokas in LA and can tell you he has set up his personal kingdom in San Diego. I know many of you think highly of him and I apologize in advance for having a different opinion, but I saw early on how important it was to him to have the "flock" around him, hanging on his every word.
All of that said, I moved on from the Walk a long time ago, and although it will always be a part of my life, I now have a much quieter, peaceful life and a much greater understanding of the human condition.
Moving on, I knew David Cokas in LA and can tell you he has set up his personal kingdom in San Diego. I know many of you think highly of him and I apologize in advance for having a different opinion, but I saw early on how important it was to him to have the "flock" around him, hanging on his every word.
All of that said, I moved on from the Walk a long time ago, and although it will always be a part of my life, I now have a much quieter, peaceful life and a much greater understanding of the human condition.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
"... and a much greater understanding of the human condition"
I like that.
I like that.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
wonderfully written, slandjt--and welcome to the board. I can relate to your experience, as I'm many that read these posts can as well. I dropped out of college (1 year from graduation), I cut off all ties from my family for close to 20 years, I gave in a myriad of ways to the "Kingdom," my marriage was arranged etc.
Part of the function of this forum, I think, is to allow those who have suffered in the movement to have an outlet and share their experiences without fear of censorship/judgement (unless you get into preaching mode, of course).
BTW, since John's death, TLWF now seems to welcome Christmas--no longer referring to it as Saturnalia, as John used to. The parading of the Christmas truck is one of the big events of the year. Maybe John will return as Santa!
<I moved on from the Walk a long time ago, and although it will always be a part of my life, I now have a much quieter, peaceful life and a much greater understanding of the human condition.>
beautiful
Part of the function of this forum, I think, is to allow those who have suffered in the movement to have an outlet and share their experiences without fear of censorship/judgement (unless you get into preaching mode, of course).
BTW, since John's death, TLWF now seems to welcome Christmas--no longer referring to it as Saturnalia, as John used to. The parading of the Christmas truck is one of the big events of the year. Maybe John will return as Santa!
<I moved on from the Walk a long time ago, and although it will always be a part of my life, I now have a much quieter, peaceful life and a much greater understanding of the human condition.>
beautiful
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Welcome SlandJT. I am always amazed at the difference in the churches in other parts of the country than they were in the South. We never had all of those abuses I hear about. I recall people asking for marriage check-outs, even asking for prayer over what color car to buy, but I don't know of any pastor or elder in my area telling anybody what to do about anything. I don't know of anybody that alienated themselves from their families, although I am positive there must have been some strain as family members knew the elders were a bunch of drunks and potheads. I do remember people "cursing the Christmas Spirit" from time to time. Well, about my involvement in Living Word, as always, Thank God I am a Southerner....
By the way, SlandJT, if you can comfortably tell us, what church were you in while you were in the Walk. I left about the same time as you, when the regime changed from JRS (and Marilyn) to Gary and Marilyn.
By the way, SlandJT, if you can comfortably tell us, what church were you in while you were in the Walk. I left about the same time as you, when the regime changed from JRS (and Marilyn) to Gary and Marilyn.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Welcome slandjt and thanks for posting! It’s interesting to me the common threads that all of us have shared that are categorically denied by TLWF. For example, being told to lie to your parents – the end justifies the means if your shepherds tell you to do it. Instead of the scriptures having the final say, they are ignored if it serves the purposes of the leader. Divorce has been another issue that has been twisted along these lines. God certainly can heal lives that have gone through divorce, but it is not the preferred path to the Kingdom as evidenced in lives of the leadership. Also, the breakup of families when families are outside TLWF, or leave the group. The real tragedy has been the kids. Gary’s refusal to relate to his own daughter from a previous marriage would be a red flag for most people – all the while encouraging members to call him and Marilyn, Dad and Mom. How can you be parents to someone else when you can’t even be a parent to your own kid? It really is a distorted view of family. JRS had the same problem with his daughters. What would it take for one of us to want to prophesy the death of our kids? That’s pretty sick – and John was the founder of the group! By the way, his prophesy never worked - it was all fantasy, not God.
The whole Christmas thing was new every year – depending on which local church you attended and who the current shepherds were. God was constantly changing his mind. One year it was no big deal, and the next you were banned from elders meetings if you had a tree at home. Then there was Rick, who was a complete law unto himself – the truth was always floating and could never really be known. Only those that worked in the Living Word building were free to do whatever they wanted – including trading wives. (Is Rick on number 4 now? The fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree.) At least they were getting John’s word out – perhaps more than they realized speaking of a living word – not just a printed word.
We all remember the many services – 17 per week for me at one time including morning and evening intercession. We were allowed to go to college, but the way it was expressed to me was college or the Kingdom – not both. Now they have Shiloh University. I supposed it’s a way to get a college education without finding out there is life beyond TLWF walls and losing control of members. We all faced the fear of reprisal from “God” by leaving – thinking He was going to destroy us. I guess we should have noticed what happened to Martha after all those many months of “Death to the Nephilim!” She was untouched and John died. If you can get to the point where you are not freaked out at the mention of God, He is so much more wonderful than anything we ever knew in TLWF. It really is spiritual abuse and a difficult thing to work through. “Call no man leader, teacher, father – you have one and it’s the Christ” is a scary place to start, but so worth the effort.
The whole Christmas thing was new every year – depending on which local church you attended and who the current shepherds were. God was constantly changing his mind. One year it was no big deal, and the next you were banned from elders meetings if you had a tree at home. Then there was Rick, who was a complete law unto himself – the truth was always floating and could never really be known. Only those that worked in the Living Word building were free to do whatever they wanted – including trading wives. (Is Rick on number 4 now? The fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree.) At least they were getting John’s word out – perhaps more than they realized speaking of a living word – not just a printed word.
We all remember the many services – 17 per week for me at one time including morning and evening intercession. We were allowed to go to college, but the way it was expressed to me was college or the Kingdom – not both. Now they have Shiloh University. I supposed it’s a way to get a college education without finding out there is life beyond TLWF walls and losing control of members. We all faced the fear of reprisal from “God” by leaving – thinking He was going to destroy us. I guess we should have noticed what happened to Martha after all those many months of “Death to the Nephilim!” She was untouched and John died. If you can get to the point where you are not freaked out at the mention of God, He is so much more wonderful than anything we ever knew in TLWF. It really is spiritual abuse and a difficult thing to work through. “Call no man leader, teacher, father – you have one and it’s the Christ” is a scary place to start, but so worth the effort.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Excellent post, Larry.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
I am just curious as to why so many of us are still affected by having been in the walk. What is the power that it seems to hold over us? Why do we keep coming back, looking for validation and clarification because I don't understand it myself. I belonged to this organisation since 1970 through to about 1983. I was in the California churches, first the Campbell church under Howard Klein, and then in Coniah, under RD Cronquist, Of course we went to the LA churches and had the proverbial arranged marriage. Really never recovered from all of the ramifications of my involvement.............I just scratch my head in wonder at it all.
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Re: Were the rumors about the Walk true or persecution from cult hunters?
Who arranged my first marriage? Well, that is complex. First of all, unless you were dating someone in the walk, be it your local branch or one of the other approved branches, you were walking outside of the protection of the church and you would in most cases be cast out. People who came into the walk as a couple were permitted to stay involved.
Most young people are on the lookout, naturally, for possible mates. In the Walk, this choice was limited to perhaps only a few logical choices.
I came into the walk in Campbell, Ca. Given my age, there were a few suitable candidates for marriage possibilities. Most of the time people would casually go out in groups with other young people, and perhaps at some level, there was choice involved, but in reality it was totally limited, nearly arranged.
The couple would approach the local pastor, say in my case, it was Howard Klein. Howard was a good person, and he basically would support a couple's decision to date. You would be checked out by the elders of the church and I really do not recall any issues that any of the young folks would have, but you were then generally checked out by Bro. Stevens, eventually. In my case, my first husband was from San Diego, and so was I. After having been advised to quit my job as a flight attendant, I decided to go home to San Diego, as the person I was going out with, purely as part of a young peoples group, was moving to San Diego. We attended Coniah Chapel, and just about right off the bat we were called on the podium by RD with a message that we should be thinking about marriage. Then we were sent to JRS for confirmation.
As far as personal choice in the matter of marriage is concerned, perhaps it was there at a very limited level. The only marriages that I know of that are still intact after 40 some odd years are the marriages in which the young couples had already come together in a much more natural process, meaning they had met before becoming involved with the Walk churches. Most are, sadly divorced. Very common outcome. My ex and I have been divorced for 30 yrs. and for the time between then and now, I remarried, and he only remarried last year. Coincidentally to a former Coniah Walk member. Very strange indeed.
Most young people are on the lookout, naturally, for possible mates. In the Walk, this choice was limited to perhaps only a few logical choices.
I came into the walk in Campbell, Ca. Given my age, there were a few suitable candidates for marriage possibilities. Most of the time people would casually go out in groups with other young people, and perhaps at some level, there was choice involved, but in reality it was totally limited, nearly arranged.
The couple would approach the local pastor, say in my case, it was Howard Klein. Howard was a good person, and he basically would support a couple's decision to date. You would be checked out by the elders of the church and I really do not recall any issues that any of the young folks would have, but you were then generally checked out by Bro. Stevens, eventually. In my case, my first husband was from San Diego, and so was I. After having been advised to quit my job as a flight attendant, I decided to go home to San Diego, as the person I was going out with, purely as part of a young peoples group, was moving to San Diego. We attended Coniah Chapel, and just about right off the bat we were called on the podium by RD with a message that we should be thinking about marriage. Then we were sent to JRS for confirmation.
As far as personal choice in the matter of marriage is concerned, perhaps it was there at a very limited level. The only marriages that I know of that are still intact after 40 some odd years are the marriages in which the young couples had already come together in a much more natural process, meaning they had met before becoming involved with the Walk churches. Most are, sadly divorced. Very common outcome. My ex and I have been divorced for 30 yrs. and for the time between then and now, I remarried, and he only remarried last year. Coincidentally to a former Coniah Walk member. Very strange indeed.
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Re: what cult were you in?
I was in the walk from around 1970 until around 1983. Which local body did you attend? I was mainly in the Campbell area church under Howard Klein, and then in the Coniah Chapel group under RD Cronquist, but attended many of the LA churches with JRS on special occasions.........like the feasts. I think it was all so messed up.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Jan,
Part of the answer, for me, is simply the overwhelming amount of exposure, and what is does to your brain. It's not easy to shake off:
21 years of involvement, which included:
-attending approximately 4000 church services, meetings (elders meetings, young adult meetings, specially called meetings to find out why so and so is being disciplined/set out of the fellowship etc.)
-approximately 4000 hours maintaining churches/Kingdom facilities, a few leaders homes
-endless hours listening to audio tapes, reading This Weeks, interceding, admonishing ministries to go light on the alcohol, setting aside my religiosity and getting drunk with ministries--resulting in bolder and more insightful words from God to the sheep...
-raising a family and sustaining a marriage
-earning a decent income to facilitate the goals of the family, which included college educations (done)
All this takes a toll!
Part of the answer, for me, is simply the overwhelming amount of exposure, and what is does to your brain. It's not easy to shake off:
21 years of involvement, which included:
-attending approximately 4000 church services, meetings (elders meetings, young adult meetings, specially called meetings to find out why so and so is being disciplined/set out of the fellowship etc.)
-approximately 4000 hours maintaining churches/Kingdom facilities, a few leaders homes
-endless hours listening to audio tapes, reading This Weeks, interceding, admonishing ministries to go light on the alcohol, setting aside my religiosity and getting drunk with ministries--resulting in bolder and more insightful words from God to the sheep...
-raising a family and sustaining a marriage
-earning a decent income to facilitate the goals of the family, which included college educations (done)
All this takes a toll!
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
I think for some of us the hurt goes very deep. We came in by our own choice in our teens and 20's. These are very formative years for a young adult. We opened up deep. We swallowed the whole enchilada. Kids born into the LW mostly do not do this as strongly. And when it comes time to question their upbringing, I think a lot of them can walk away easier.
But those that chose the Walk. We thought we had found nirvana. We invested everything. I think that's why the hurt is deep and more difficult to heal from. But walk-born are hurt too.
It helps having this forum to talk things out. Especially the things I had buried deep inside me. Thank you all for listening and being here.
But those that chose the Walk. We thought we had found nirvana. We invested everything. I think that's why the hurt is deep and more difficult to heal from. But walk-born are hurt too.
It helps having this forum to talk things out. Especially the things I had buried deep inside me. Thank you all for listening and being here.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
John knew how to sell his ministry. His charisma really drew people that were looking for something to fill the void in their heart. I believe there was some authenticity to what he did, which made him even more effective in linking people to himself. But eventually the power plays to consolidate his control over the walk, aided by ruthless people like Marilyn and Gary, undid what good intentions he may have had. Almost everything became a cause to go to war. As usual, the dutiful, servile congregant that believed they were being led by a word from God, paid the highest cost...emotionally, financially etc.
In retrospect, being asked to pray for the death of a leader's wife (or the spirit that moved through her...never could get that right)...should have been a red flag that something was amiss. That's been brought up many times in this forum, and rightfully so.
Insanity!
p.s. I think Oliver Stone would have enjoyed witnessing some of our intercession services.
In retrospect, being asked to pray for the death of a leader's wife (or the spirit that moved through her...never could get that right)...should have been a red flag that something was amiss. That's been brought up many times in this forum, and rightfully so.
Insanity!
p.s. I think Oliver Stone would have enjoyed witnessing some of our intercession services.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
I hope somebody will post here that were in the following churches: Knoxville Tennessee, Memphis Tennessee, Detroit Michigan, Houston Texas, Gainsville Florida, Cedar Key Florida, there are others too. I would like to know what eventually happend to the churches in these places, if they decided to break up, if some of them decided to drop out of Living Word and yet continue as churches, or what.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Great question Jan. For me I think the hold on my thought process is because I haven't thoroughly forgiven. I have my moments but under stress I lose it. A few years ago when I read factnet, I was blown away by the forgiveness of one of the LW posters (missing link I think was her screen name) and her resolve not to be bitter. I thought that's what I want.
I remember Ditch Digger Yasper recommended meditation (I think it's also called mindfulness these days) which I have tried but I have a hard time slowing down my mind or brain. But I want to keep at it as science tells us that too much stress does damage the brain but the brain has the ability to recover due to plasticity and apparently meditation can help with this as can calming herbal teas and certain medications. Folks who master meditation seem to live in the present and are not stuck or tormented by what happened in the past. (I learned some of that when my mom was aging.)
I remember Ditch Digger Yasper recommended meditation (I think it's also called mindfulness these days) which I have tried but I have a hard time slowing down my mind or brain. But I want to keep at it as science tells us that too much stress does damage the brain but the brain has the ability to recover due to plasticity and apparently meditation can help with this as can calming herbal teas and certain medications. Folks who master meditation seem to live in the present and are not stuck or tormented by what happened in the past. (I learned some of that when my mom was aging.)
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
I too have been pretty bitter. The thing that is making me snap out of it some, is the realization that I could not have possibly done things better than the leadership of the Living Word Fellowship. I was just as messed up because I was so full of myself that I thought I was the answer to everybody's problems. I think these guys think the same thing. I am coming to the conclusion that the current administration of the Walk is like the origional, they both think they know what is best for everybody, and they don't know that is arrogance. It will take a revelation of Jesus Christ to make them snap out of it. I have prayed they get that revelation and repent and see if they can undo some of the harm they did.
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
I have been told wrong or they are lying. I have been told that Marilyn sent out a word for most of the churches to California or the Shiloh area in Iowa. Their website says:
“In the 1990s, many congregants of the smaller churches and home meetings chose to relocate in order to attend the churches originally founded by John Robert Stevens. Since the mid-90s, the fellowship has focused on developing church communities that create an environment for the maturing of each believer in Christ.”
What do you all know about all of that?
“In the 1990s, many congregants of the smaller churches and home meetings chose to relocate in order to attend the churches originally founded by John Robert Stevens. Since the mid-90s, the fellowship has focused on developing church communities that create an environment for the maturing of each believer in Christ.”
What do you all know about all of that?
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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
"Their website says:
In the 1990s, many congregants of the smaller churches and home meetings chose to relocate in order to attend the churches originally founded by John Robert Stevens. Since the mid-90s, the fellowship has focused on developing church communities that create an environment for the maturing of each believer in Christ.”
So these decisions to relocate originated from the congregants?
And that is what prompted the sale of the smaller churches?
In the 1990s, many congregants of the smaller churches and home meetings chose to relocate in order to attend the churches originally founded by John Robert Stevens. Since the mid-90s, the fellowship has focused on developing church communities that create an environment for the maturing of each believer in Christ.”
So these decisions to relocate originated from the congregants?
And that is what prompted the sale of the smaller churches?
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